Unpacking the Illusion of Quick-Fix Leadership Training
I recently had the opportunity to join Andy Goram on the "Sticky From The Inside" podcast to discuss one of my greatest passions — and central to our work at Corvirtus: why leadership training so often fails to create lasting change.
As someone who’s spent my career supporting organizations in building stronger leaders and cultures, I see a familiar pattern: teams return from workshops feeling energized and inspired, only to have that energy fade as old habits creep back in.
In our conversation, I shared that this isn’t about a lack of motivation or poor-quality training. It’s about a fundamental misunderstanding of what leadership development really requires. Too often, organizations treat leadership growth as a one-off event—a quick fix—rather than a continuous, lived process. That quick-fix mindset is alluring, but rarely delivers results.
The Science Behind Sustainable Leadership Development
Leadership development is, at its core, a behavior change challenge—not just a learning challenge. While it’s important to provide new frameworks, models, and tools, these are just the starting point. Real transformation requires leaders to consistently behave differently under pressure, in real environments, with real consequences.
On the podcast, I highlighted the "forgetting curve," which shows how quickly we lose new information if it isn’t reinforced. Without repeated opportunities to practice, reflect, and receive feedback, most of what’s learned in training is forgotten within days. This is not a failing of willpower; it’s simply how our brains are wired. Sustainable leadership development must be designed to account for these realities.
Barriers to Lasting Change: What Organizations Overlook
A major barrier to sticking with new leadership behaviors is environment. While it’s tempting for leaders to blame themselves when change doesn’t last, the truth is that our surroundings — the feedback we receive, the systems we operate within, the social norms we experience — have a huge impact on what we actually do.
I encourage leaders to shift their mindset from “Why can’t I just do this better?” to “What in my environment is making this harder than it needs to be?” Small, intentional changes to the environment — like feedback loops, visible reinforcement, and shared expectations—can make it far easier to sustain new habits. Values, identity, and authenticity also play a pivotal role. When leadership development feels personally meaningful (aligned with who we want to be and what we care about) change is much more likely to stick.
From Theory to Practice: Embedding Leadership Skills in Everyday Culture
Lasting leadership development happens when organizations move from events to systems. Instead of relying on workshops alone, organizations should create multiple touchpoints over time, provide opportunities for reflection and peer connection, and embed gentle reminders and nudges into daily work. Leadership growth should feel like a natural rhythm, not a task bolted onto an already full plate.
Social support and accountability are critical. Leaders who involve their teams—by sharing their development goals and inviting feedback — see much greater, more sustainable progress. When growth is social, not solo, it builds momentum and becomes part of the fabric of daily culture.
Evidence-Based Solutions That Transform Leadership Impact
At Corvirtus, we’re passionate about designing evidence-based, scalable leadership solutions grounded in behavioral science. Our approach includes tailored growth journeys, peer cohorts, ongoing nudges, and actionable analytics that reinforce progress—not just perfection. By aligning leadership development with organizational values, individual identity, and the realities of the workplace, we make growth realistic, human, and sustainable.
If you’d like to hear more, you can listen to the full podcast episode below, and find the complete transcript at the end of this post. I hope these insights help you rethink how your organization approaches leadership development—and inspire you to create systems that support real, lasting change for your leaders and teams.
Full Podcast Transcript:
[The complete transcript of my conversation with Andy Goram is included below for those who prefer to read or want to revisit specific insights.]
[Andy Goram] (0:10 - 3:11)
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Why Leadership Training Creates Energy but Rarely Lasts
Okay then, let's be honest, many of us have been on a leadership course where we left energised, inspired and maybe even convinced we were about to transform how we led and maybe even change the world only to find out that two weeks later absolutely nothing had changed
Not because we didn't care, not because the training wasn't just what we needed but because work just got in the way. The same meetings, pressures, habits, expectations and all that momentum and enthusiasm for personal change just evaporated. So, what's the problem here?
Is it the leaders themselves, the training content or the system we drop ourselves back into? Well, my guest today, Dr. Jennifer Ugo, has spent her career working out the answers to those questions and how to fix the issue of ineffective leadership development. Well, not just leadership, any behavioural-based growth actually.
Jenn is the Managing Director and owner of Corvirtus, a long-established consultancy specialising in assessment, hiring, leadership development, culture and the science of behaviour at work. With a PhD in Industrial Organisational Psychology, she brings a lovely blend of evidence, empathy and real-world leadership experience to her work. Jenn believes leadership development only sticks when it stops being a moment and becomes being a movement, when it shifts from a workshop you go to, to a rhythm you live inside every day.
Now, in this episode, I hope we'll explore why traditional leadership development fails, what the science really tells us about behaviour change and how to build the systems, touchpoints and habits that make growth a natural part of daily work, not something bolted on once a year and forgotten almost immediately. Jenn, welcome to the show.
[Jenn Yugo] (3:11 - 3:13)
Thank you so much, Andy.
[Andy Goram] (3:14 - 4:03)
Lovely to have you here. I love a bit of neuroscience, I love a bit of psychology and I love how that all comes together to make leadership more effective and I know myself, having been on several leadership development programmes during my early career and now, if I'm honest, on the other side of events, trying to facilitate such sessions, I know the impact they can have but I also understand and see the difficulties that when people go on those courses, they have the great intentions to go back but then things just don't happen. So today, I'm really excited to talk about that with you and get your view on it all.
Before we run headlong into all of that stuff, Jenn, do us a favour, will you? Just give us a little introduction to you, a better one than I gave, your background and what you're focused on today.
Introducing Jenn Yugo and Her Work in Behavioural Psychology
[Jenn Yugo] (4:04 - 5:58)
Well, you gave a brilliant introduction, thank you. So, I started my journey really with my undergraduate in psychology. I was always intrigued and excited about human behaviour and understanding people and what makes them who they are and it really excited me, I think even from learning about it in high school a little bit, the idea of applying that to the workplace.
So much of our identity and what we invest, most of our waking hours are spent at work and so to be able to improve that not only does so much for business, for our welfare as people and being able to do and accomplish and be more, make businesses successful but also as human beings and benefiting our own welfare and well-being. So that led me to industrial organisational psychology. I was very blessed to have my PhD at Bowling Green State University, a nationally ranked program here in the United States and I think just being so immersed in such a wonderful academic environment and doing research just led me to want to keep doing more of that and go into the academic life but then what I realised when I landed there at a business school was that I was excited more and more about the opportunities that I had to work with organisations hands-on and so that led me to go quickly on the market and end up in Colorado working with Marta Earhart and Tom Dakotas, the founders of our company and they were fixing to retire as you might say and they for some reason thought I was the best option to kind of continue their legacy and look out for the company and so that landed me as owning the company in 2019 right before the pandemic, absolute perfect time.
Thrown into everything and it's been a wonderful six years now, I can't believe it.
[Andy Goram] (5:59 - 6:19)
And I'm really always interested when people make a big switch, so the switch for you from academia straight into organisational work and the world of business, did you consider staying in academia at one point or if you did what pulled you into the world of business?
Moving from Academia to Business: Applying Behavioural Science at Work
[Jenn Yugo] (6:20 - 6:58)
That's a great question. I remember going to, I went to Quicken Loans, a large finance company in the United States here at their headquarters I think at the time which may still be in Detroit with my students for a Society of Human Resource Management, the student group activity and just like the collaboration and the collegiality of working in a team and just that interconnectedness that's a little bit greater than being a university professor just had me so intrigued and I remember being slightly envious of people going to meetings and I'd have other...
[Andy Goram] (6:59 - 7:04)
You weirdo Jenn, you weirdo, people don't want to even do that nowadays, they want to get out of meetings half the time.
[Jenn Yugo] (7:04 - 7:51)
Exactly, I was just like oh you get to have all of these moments connecting with other people and working side by side on projects and I just I wanted to do that, I wanted to just have that experience and so I did look at other options within academe and other paths I could go down and it really I think one of the gifts I had was academia is so flexible, I had tons of time and flexibility to think and I ended up getting my senior professional and human resources certification, was able to take time to study that and learn different things that weren't really part of the traditional industrial organizational psych knowledge base and loved doing that and then when I applied to Corvirtus, Marta, one of our founders said well it was clear you weren't a typical IO and that was one of my strengths I guess.
[Andy Goram] (7:51 - 9:13)
That's nice, that's really nice. I'm just always fascinated by those switches that people make, having made my own kind of switch later in life, I think it's really, really fascinating. Also fascinating and I make no secret on this show, I'm an absolute fan boy when it comes to people who have a grounding in neuroscience and psychology, I love it and I'm a massive enthusiast for it and I'm really, really interested in your perspective here because we're talking about I guess specifically leadership development but any sort of behavior-based growth initiatives, training programs, whatever you want to call it and in that intro I sort of set this context that you know for all great intent and purposes people turn up to these things, they probably have a great time, they get enthusiastic, they feel pumped, motivated, they run out and then they just hit this wall of work and often all the things they intend to do, all the things that nuggets they've picked up, insights they've learned, the self-awareness that they've grown, it doesn't really materialize into much in many cases.
That's not saying it affects everybody like that but for many people it feels like I've got to add something to work and do something different and something happens, something fails and I'm fascinated to know from your perspective, what does the science tell us about why these programs fall into this problem?
Leadership Development as a Behaviour Change Challenge
[Jenn Yugo] (9:15 - 11:34)
Right and that's really the key question as we put all so much time and effort and intentionality and financial resources and our greatest resource, our time into these activities and we don't see the progress that we had hoped for and I think it comes down to us not recognizing that what we're seeking to achieve is behavior change. So becoming a better leader, following through, changing how you approach guiding an enterprise, a team, that comes down to changing your whole approach and your behavior and that consistency over time and whether we're looking at making improvements on our own, in our own personal lives, with our own finances, our own health and well-being or we're looking at a team or an organization, we see that over two-thirds of those initiatives, whether we're looking at a company or a person, they end up failing and it's too often because we're just focused on one piece of the entire ecosystem or just one moment in time and we can only achieve so much when we're limited to just a couple touch points in someone's experience. If you look at the forgetting curve, we see that we lose almost all of the knowledge, upwards of sometimes 90% of the knowledge that we gained within 24 hours or so of having that experience. So we need more to support us.
We also tend to put too much on ourselves. We think, oh, well, I failed. I didn't have the motivation.
I lacked the work ethic or I just let that slip. If I would have stayed an hour later or put in more time, I could have done that but we don't think enough about our environment. So some of what we've done is try to encourage people to think about their environment.
How can I get some feedback loops going where my team is going to reach out to me when they see me doing something that's supporting our goals, supporting what I've shared I'm working on, so I don't have to think about it as much. Or if I tell someone what the big picture is, where we're working towards, then we can move towards it together. Or if I identify different obstacles, whether that's within work or even my life outside of work, that are going to be necessary for me to, and very helpful for me to make the change that is necessary.
[Andy Goram] (11:34 - 12:26)
I think that's fascinating. I mean, I know it sounds really obvious, but I don't think it necessarily always is. The first thing that you mentioned there about we're looking at behaviour change and maybe sometimes the programme itself or the mindset of someone going in is going to be things I'm going to learn, processes, systems that I'm going to learn and they need something to stick to, right, which is the behaviour change, the intent.
And then sometimes the intent might be there, but it's short-lived. And in your experience, where's that gap come from in terms of that intent that we might have when we leave, but the sustainable, I would overuse the word sticky, behaviour that lies behind. What's going on, I don't know, psychologically with us to cause us a problem there?
Values, Identity and Authentic Leadership Behaviour
[Jenn Yugo] (12:27 - 14:39)
Well, sticky is a brilliant word to use in this because we are seeking to make it sticky. We want it to last and endure and be with us. And one piece that's missing could be the connection to who you are as a person, your goals, your values.
We have what we value and then what we try to do. And then where we lack that consistency because we get caught up in the whirlwind of the day-to-day. So what you said, having those habits and those disciplines, those realistic behaviours that I can commit to or resources that I know I have that are meaningful and important in the moment that are going to help me do what I need to, to be a better leader, whether that's having that difficult conversation and giving that feedback or investing time in learning a new skill or a new approach so that I can advance what my team is capable of doing. Connecting that idea of authenticity, feeling that connection between my organisation, what I'm doing as a leader, who I am and what I'm doing and making sure that that's consistent. And that's one of the strategies that we use as we try to get leaders to think about, imagine just a wonderful day for you and for your team, for you as a leader six months from now.
What does that look like? Can you just envision the day even from your car pulling up to the office or you walking into your office and what things feel like, what you're doing? Imagine the conversations you're having.
How are they different? And just visualising that and then working backwards, okay, well, what do you need to happen? Maybe there's a resource that in that vision of what you know you're going to be doing six months from now, I can envision that, oh, I have a new software programme that makes things just easier.
Then that can help me identify, oh, well, maybe I need to make this software switch or maybe I need to strengthen this person's ability to act, to be able to perform and act and deliver results in a certain way. And so working through some strategies that are very simple and guided in behavioural neuroscience that help us realise where we're going, have it connect to us powerfully and then propel us to move forward, as well as make the changes in our environment that we need to. So it's not just this other thing that's put on our plates that we have to do.
[Andy Goram] (14:39 - 16:19)
I think that last phrase you've just used, I sort of hear a lot in the leadership programmes that I'm involved with and labouring the point with delegates that if you're sitting here thinking this is something I've got to add to what I already do, you're already doomed to failure because you don't have space or time or capacity for more. You've got to think about this as doing different. And I think that's a real mindset shift for a lot of people.
I also love this idea that you talk about connecting to your values. If it means something to me and aligns to me, I guess I'm that more aligned to doing something with it. Because again, it feels less difficult for me to make some of that change.
I also think we can definitely underplay this thing about environment and involvement of others. I'm guessing that the best, most effective leaders who come through these sorts of programmes don't see it as a solo sport. It's not what I'm going to do to my team when I get back differently.
It's what I'm going to do with my team. And I think that involvement, the reinforcement of bringing your team in and saying, look, I'm going through this stuff. There's some things I want to change in my behaviour.
Let me take you through what I'm trying to achieve here. What I need you to do is to be my Batman. It's to say, hey, I see that, that's great.
You're not living that through. Is that what you're talking about with this environment and involvement and not trying to do it on your own?
Why Leadership Development Is Not a Solo Activity
[Jenn Yugo] (16:21 - 17:22)
Yes. You said it beautifully. It's bringing people along with you.
And so having that support within your team and connecting to who I am. If I see myself as a person who leads with compassion or executes seamlessly, and that's part of who I am, what I value, then I'm going to build the systems and better commit and be a person that does those things and bringing my team along with me and sharing that vision and that idea of authenticity that I'm open about what I'm working on, where my strengths are, where I see my vulnerabilities and seeking that support from others.
When we look at the factors that propel success and leadership and whether we're looking at changes through 360s or changes through our leadership development programs, the degree of social support, connectedness with one's team, how much they involved their team in their leadership journey is one of the strongest factors in terms of seeing meaningful results over time.
[Andy Goram] (17:22 - 18:20)
And I guess this sort of links to other topics that we regularly end up discussing on this podcast is, and I'm interested in your view as to how and whether these, or I guess what role they play in influencing growth, which is personal growth, but behavior change, the whole sense of belonging, which maybe links to this involvement thing, the need for psychological safety. And in that I'm thinking maybe within the leadership development room itself and outside of it. And then I think you've just mentioned clarity, because if I think about something like the scarf model, I think that certainty, the clarity element of that could be a real trigger for people.
And is this going to work? Is it not going to work? How are people going to react?
I'm wondering how those three things play a role in that successful growth from the psychologist perspective.
[Jenn Yugo] (18:21 - 22:14)
Yes. Those are all deep topics that we could spend a whole series of episodes talking about. But you do get at some of the key elements that we've incorporated into our leadership development programs.
We know that we're facing a challenge with succession planning, that are the core of our leadership. People, mid-career, mid-level managers are feeling burnt out, are often leaving, contemplating career changes and shifts. And we know that junior leaders, people maybe starting their leadership journey, are often struggling to, to, to find their way, to find a place, and also are at risk of turnover and leaving.
Creating Ongoing Reinforcement Beyond the Initial Training Moment
And so one thing that we strive to create is that connection. And so we've done that through a series of, we call them growth, we call it a growth journey and their growth journey sessions along the way. And people are paired together or grouped together and maybe, you know, leadership groups of five to seven, sometimes 10 people.
If they're larger, we're able to do breakout groups and things either virtually or in person. And that way they have a chance to connect with leaders, either across departments or across locations that they might not see so much or might not even have met before. And they either share some complimentary traits or share some traits that are similar in their approach, their style, their needs, their goals.
And they're able to dialogue and problem solve and brainstorm and given scenarios and opportunities that are related to those so that they build those connections. And then we don't just have the one session and that's it. We're, the more we're able to do that's realistic within, you know, that their, their life and their journey, having maybe a connect every three, four or five weeks for a time so that they're able to reconnect with people, have a little bit of that like softer accountability of, okay, we're going to go and work on X and then come back and get to share with one another.
And I'm, I know that I'm going to be asked about, you know, what I've been doing or, and I'm eager to share and support and help those people that I've, I've met before and that I share something with. So that's one key piece. And then following that up also with just consistent nudges through whatever technology we have available, whether that's a, the organizations, one of their technology platforms that people are frequently using for communication or text messaging or email.
Once we have all that data on, you know, what they're working on, they maybe have an assessment that they've taken a leadership assessment of themselves. So where they've shared how they see their strengths, how they see themselves as leaders, their predominant ways of working and leading. Then maybe we have some objective or ratings of performance through 360, through KPIs, performance indicators, other metrics, and we're able to share, okay, you are going to be working on this key metric.
And you know that you're, you're a strongly people focused leader that maybe wants to get more operationally focused. Here are some things you can work on or, you know, what's one thing in your busy week that you can, can do, or think back to your last session. What was something you talked about that you can implement or maybe make stronger?
So giving them a mix of things to think about, reminders, but it's, it's tailored to them and just those gentle nudges just help push us in the right directions. Nudges are used throughout a variety of different applications and they can be so powerful in just reminding us of who we are, what we can do, an option that maybe we didn't think was possible. So I'm heading into a very busy day where we're talking right now around the holiday season.
People have a lot of, a lot of demands, a lot of challenges on all fronts. And so just, you know, getting a little reminder that, you know, maybe you can have one small coaching conversation or give some recognition today or work on a process or make sure that the, the processes, procedures, XYZ project that you talked about is still moving forward. What are some simple things you can do?
[Andy Goram] (22:14 - 23:34)
Yeah. I mean, I think you've touched on all three things there. I'm assuming listening to how you talk about this, that the program is open.
And by that, I mean, you've got people from different companies and different industries, um, kind of working together. So I, in, in my experience, I've always found those to be fascinating and really worthwhile. I think that we talk about that sense of belonging.
I think that network connection of talking to people in a similar positions in different places, in different industries, there's, there's so much collaboration and validation that goes on in those conversations, people suddenly realizing, wow, this isn't just me who's dealing with this. And it's not just me. That's got this problem.
In fact, someone in a completely unrelated place is going through the same thing or somebody else has found a solution to something that I'm really, really struggling with that open nature of a program. I find just brilliant. I don't know why more people don't, don't do that.
I find it quite interesting when some companies are reticent about putting people on an open program because they're worried about, well, they might say something about the company to somebody else and la la la. I genuinely think you mentioned time and investment in this stuff. I just think it multiplies the experience when you're talking to people who aren't in the same four walls as you.
Do you agree with that or have you got a different view?
[Jenn Yugo] (23:34 - 24:49)
Yes, exactly. We've mostly done our work with people within the same organization, but often they're mixing with, um, cause our clients are often organizations, but often they're mixing with people from different departments, different, uh, professions or different areas of the business. So you might have someone who's at a location or office on the East coast with someone on the West coast, um, of the United States.
Learning Through Peer Connection and Cross-Organisational Insight
And so that leads to just some, some beautiful connections and discoveries and, and, and on that same feeling of that, that you, um, that you belong or someone with it talking with someone from HR realizing they have the same kind of challenges leading and working with, with one another. But I absolutely agree about, uh, working across organizations. That's a fantastic opportunity.
And I think part of why I love going to in-person meetings like, uh, industry conferences, both within my, uh, my domain, as well as going to, we work a lot within, uh, healthcare, hospitality, food service, and getting to meet those leaders as well, is that they, they talk about some of the same challenges I might be dealing with or things I hear at a completely different industry. And it's just so wonderful to, to have those moments and get to share. And really it gets a good idea of trust that, that people that you trust your team and, and trust your leaders to be able to go and do that.
[Andy Goram] (24:50 - 25:32)
I so agree with that. I totally get, and there's obviously massive merit in the organizational stuff and having people from the same organization. I just think that added little bit of spice, uh, and benefit that you get out of it, I think is great on those open things.
Now I am interested. I'm, I mean, I think you've started to unpack some of it already, but I've kind of built you up, Jenn, right? Just found solutions for all these things.
Why it doesn't, why it doesn't stick. Right. And I'm interested to understand about your, your process.
I don't know if you can walk us through what that development process looks like and what the sort of key stages are. I know you've unpacked some, some of those elements perhaps previously, but you take us through that, a typical kind of journey.
[Jenn Yugo] (25:33 - 26:58)
Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, we would want to understand just what are, what are the goals of the organization? Uh, we talked about our own personal values.
We might be talking about the organization's values, their culture, how they're seeking to build that culture. Is it succession planning? Sometimes, uh, I mentioned earlier, there's a challenge of keeping, uh, early leaders.
So people at those first levels of leadership, uh, growing and retaining them so that they can move forward and that the organization has that stability that so very much needs, or it could be a specific performance challenge, retention, culture challenge, uh, at some other level or across the board. Uh, so we really take a lot of time to, to spec out what the goals are, um, what leadership looks like. Uh, and again, with my background as an organizational psychologist, that might involve something like, uh, defining what performance looks like.
So, um, I think I've just written a couple articles on competencies and been talking about competencies, uh, a little bit more lately, especially kind of going into the new year. It's a great thing to kind of touch on and, and see, uh, see where you're at. Are the competencies, do competencies exist?
Are they relevant? How are they interconnected? And so it might be, we might look at culture, we might look at competencies, we might thread the two together.
Cause usually when we work on competencies, we're connecting the core values and beliefs into them. So the two live, the competencies live and support your, your culture and your core values.
[Andy Goram] (26:58 - 26:59)
100% agree with that. Yeah.
[Jenn Yugo] (27:00 - 29:28)
Yeah. So we, we start with the end in mind and, and how this is going to fit in with everything else. Uh, timing of course.
So, uh, one organization that I talked with, they're going to be really looking at Q2 and Q3 to, uh, invest in this heavily in terms of the time of the participants. Uh, and then Q1 might be really focused on development and then Q4 kind of measuring success, supporting people more, but less of their time. Uh, because Q4 is where there may be a little more busy and that could vary, you know, just depending on the nature of the leaders and the industry.
And so once we have all of that in place, then, um, what we'd love to be able to do is have some, some moments of revelation and understanding and awareness by combining, um, that performance piece. So what I'm actually doing and achieving, how I'm perceived in the work environment, the impact I'm having with who I am as a person through some sort of assessment. And what we are, are an assessments company
So we do have our own assessments. Sometimes we do use assessments that are already, uh, out there that have been taken. That's fantastic as well, but really combining those two, can we, how can we help people see the connection between my strengths, my natural tendencies, my values, and the work that I'm doing.
And then we might, um, we've done some nine boxing before we, um, analytics, things like that, that can be done at the beginning, or it could be done at any point during the process. But then, um, our initial discovery and build process helps us understand how we're going to, uh, place people in the growth journey sessions and, and different, um, how we're going to further different connections to support them. And sometimes it could also involve, you know, one-on-one coaching.
We might incorporate that as well. So we just build out the whole network there. And then we, uh, we just get started and have those, uh, those growth journey sessions over a series of several months.
And, uh, along the way as well, provide nudges, provide resources as needed. There could even be tailored sessions. Sometimes we do breakout sessions for, uh, the leaders, supporting the leaders or even teams to further strengthen things along the way.
So we're trying to, again, get that idea of the environment and the ecosystem that leaders are working within to best support them to be successful so that their environment is going to, to move them forward. Some other things that we do and think about, um, one strategy that's a little bit fun is just, uh, embracing pessimism.
[Andy Goram] (29:29 - 29:31)
That's fascinating. Tell me about that.
[Jenn Yugo] (29:31 - 31:44)
Yeah. So embracing pessimism is really just thinking of every possible thing that could go wrong. So if I'm going to, um, implement a new process or, uh, walk my team through a new way of working with one another, uh, what's every possible challenge that I might be, uh, discounting or I might have a blind spot over right now that could get in my way.
What are maybe even things outside of work, uh, in my broader, uh, life and existence that could, could cause problems and then developing habits and daily disciplines and support structures so that I'm ready, uh, to tackle those. And another, um, neuroscience linked strategy that can support us is if, then thinking. So, uh, computers have the advantage of us telling them like, if this happens, then do this.
And it would be great if for some things we could just do that. If every morning at 6am I could be working out, that would be fantastic. Um, but to what extent possible can I have those if then rules within my leadership.
So maybe it could be something as simple as every, uh, first Monday of the month. I look at certain reports to see how we're performing or maybe it's that, uh, something a little softer. If I start to feel frustrated, I maybe go and just have an informal conversation with someone, uh, about it, or I seek someone's advice and share about it with some of our earlier, uh, early career leaders.
When they start to feel frustrated or feel that there's a conflict that makes them uncomfortable, just going and seeking out a peer is something that can be very doable and helpful for them with, um, with leading. So just, and then just making it a commitment. If this happens, I'm doing this.
That's what, that's what we're going to do. And in sticking to it. And so some of those, um, we call them often daily disciplines or habits.
Uh, if this happens and this happens as if then rules kind of thinking of ourselves and trying to envision ourselves and have that consistency, because that's really what it's all about with behavior change and making a positive change is that consistency that we have these values and goals and we want to move them forward. But if we're not consistent, we get caught up in the day-to-day.
Designing Leadership Development as a Long-Term Journey
[Andy Goram] (31:46 - 32:36)
I mean, I love that whole idea of if then thinking that, that, that feels great. And the fact that it's got that neuroscience link, but it's a prompt to find a situation, be confident in a solution or at least an action, a positive, confident action at the back of it. I really love that.
Just listen to you speak. I'm really interested when you're designing a program or you're going into an organization. Do you, do you take in a specific leadership philosophy into that program or is it always a tailored approach based on the competencies and everything else that organization needs?
Is it a blend? I'm just, I'm just interested because, I mean, I think people operate in different, different spaces. There are people that go and teach their doctrine of leadership and there are others that are tailoring and structuring to an organization.
Where do you, where do you come from?
[Jenn Yugo] (32:37 - 34:02)
Yeah. Um, so I would say our approach or my approach is very much evidence-based. So it's always evolving based on, uh, what we know about the science of leadership and growth and supporting people through that journey of striving to, to improve.
And then we also exist within the organization's needs, uh, goals, what they're focused on and trying to make those happen with the best tools that we have available. Um, another just approach kind of thinking about when we do coaching and whether it's scalable coaching, because one piece of what I love about what we do is that it's very scalable. It could happen at a larger level.
Um, a lot of these pieces are, are flexible and can happen in a lot of different sessions, but just our realities and, um, situations. But another thing to think about is just like setting specific goals of what we want to achieve, recognizing the reality of where we're at, what's maybe coming at us in the future, how can we respond? And then just thinking about, you know, what are the different options that we have and what are we committed to?
So kind of a grow model. So goal, reality options, and then what we're going to do can be really helpful. And that's one that I've used in, in coaching is just thinking about, okay, where are we headed.
What's out there? What, what are the different options that could happen or things we could do? And then what are we going to do and what support do I need in order to do that?
[Andy Goram] (34:02 - 34:46)
Which links very much to that sort of grow model coaching kind of approach, which, which we know is really, really cool. Works really, really well. Um, I'm, I'm interested also in this thing that I'm picking up from, you know, reading a little bit about what you do and listening, listening to you today, that somewhere in this habit change stuff or forming habits, we've got to try and get people into the mindset that development isn't a one-off.
It's kind of a lived daily experience. And, and how do you incorporate some of those things? Is it, is it something to do with the, with the nudges?
Is it something to do with mindset stuff that you do? What's the, what's the story?
[Jenn Yugo] (34:47 - 36:19)
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question
So how do we kind of make it part of who we are? And I think that gets back to understanding what our, what our values are and who we are as people. What do we want to achieve?
Another question that we have often at the beginning is just like, why are you here? What, what is this, what is the connection between where you are now and where you want to go and, and who you are as a person and, and what you want to achieve. So it could be obviously some things related to, um, where, you know, economics and where they want to grow as a person and their career trajectory and, and roles and things.
But another, another thing we do is ask why. So if I have in my mind that I want to be a director in five years, well, why do I want to be a director? It could be the salary and what that means for my family.
It could mean the flexibility, but it maybe also means things that I want to grow and coach other people, or I want to have an impact for clients or any number of different things. So asking why, so we often hear about people wanting too soon to be move into a different role or being entitled or things like that. Well, maybe asking why, why, why do they want that?
And then there could be really meaningful, positive things behind why they want to be at that level or that role or want that, whether it's again, salary or having a connection with something or, um, pride and sense of accomplishment that we can latch on to, um, as leaders and organizations and make happen and, and find a wonderful way to, uh, to build on both things
[Andy Goram] (36:19 - 36:43)
So if I'm listening and hearing you correctly from a, from a neuroscience perspective, or maybe even from the way the behavior changes in the, in the psychology of it, if we are more closely linked to the actions, to our values and our end goals, we are more likely to see development as an ongoing thing rather than it's a stop gap thing to go and do, and then come back and do something else. We can get into that continuous improvement mindset.
[Jenn Yugo] (36:44 - 37:24)
Yes, absolutely. When I, when I know that my value is, you know, seeking an impact on, on clients or on my team in a certain way, and I'm able to see, oh, these obstacles that I'm facing, this feedback that I got from my performance review, or that I heard in this meeting, like that's an obstacle that I need to overcome and want to bring other people with me to overcome so that I can achieve that, that broader goal.
And so those values and tying into what people want and need and, and see as important is, is so meaningful in supporting growth and development and making it part of who they are, who we all are and having that, that business impact.
[Andy Goram] (37:25 - 37:52)
And you've mentioned, um, the sort of wider ecosystem, uh, a couple of, a couple of times, cause you, I know your work covers a full range of employee experience and we've kind of like myopically or I've myopically kind of dived into the leadership stuff today, but how do some of those lessons, I guess, that you've learned out the whole leadership development space, how do they play out across the rest of that employee experience, employee journey in your work?
What lessons are you taking in there?
[Jenn Yugo] (37:53 - 38:43)
Uh, that value of social support that I mentioned earlier. So that feeling of interconnection, I mean, maybe even to somewhat what led me to move from academe to, to consulting, uh, just when we feel that we have others with us and that are supporting us, and we're all working towards the same goal. When we, when we see that, whether that's through an employee engagement survey or through 360 performance data, uh, the impact that has on the organization is, is so, so significant.
Sustaining Behaviour Change Through Habits, Nudges and Measurement
Um, we know that people said a lot, don't leave organizations, they leave leaders. And so anything we can put towards making sure that those leaders, which really set the direction and the culture of the organization is, is going to be just so transformational. Uh, and one of the most important things that we could focus on as a company.
[Andy Goram] (38:44 - 39:50)
And, and again, we can't avoid this, this topic without referencing culture because leaders influence culture so much. And I think what's, what I find interesting, and I know I'm not qualified in the same amazing tools that, that, that you bring to the party, Jenn, but the conversations around culture, I find it fascinating at the difference between people who are absolutely aware of the impact that they have on others. And those that are seemingly in the dark completely, that it's just work and the culture thing is something else that's bolted on, on top.
What I'm interested again, having, having you on the show from the cultural perspective, how do we, how do we make more of this? How do, how do we, how do we really link up the culture and leadership stuff and the impact? Because I think going forwards, it's, as you keep saying, as, as Gallup have been telling us for years, people don't leave organizations because of the organization strategy.
It's because of the managers, but how do we firm this link up? Do you think going forwards?
[Jenn Yugo] (39:51 - 41:07)
Well, one thing that we found to be helpful is articulating your culture specifically, sometimes in terms of promises. So what are your promises to your employees? So as a leadership group, even, could be an exercise and something that's committed to beyond a mission statement of just what are our promises to our team?
What does it mean to be a leader? What are the promises we make as leaders? And what are the promises our employees make to the organization as well?
And then from that, you can, again, to get back to competencies, have some of those key behaviors that are part of keeping those promises, whether that's, you know, stepping up productivity, teamwork, integrity, so on and so forth. We can have some meaningful, specific conversations about that. And then that can tie into how we develop leaders, how we evaluate their performance, how we build the leadership model across moving through the organization, from, you know, frontline leaders all the way through C-level leaders.
And so being able to understand specifics, I think too often culture is something that's thought of as fuzzy. And the more we can articulate it, oftentimes we do that in terms of promises and then thread that throughout talent management. So how we evaluate performance, how we coach, develop training.
[Andy Goram] (41:08 - 41:52)
I think that last part is the most important part, ultimately, because I think when culture gets a bad rap, as it's this fluffy thing that just happens anyway, it's because someone may have done the poster work or the mural work and put some nice words together, but there's no backup on it. There's no action on it. And I think this kind of like exchange of promises between leadership or the organization that they represent and the employees inside it, I think is a really interesting kind of involving work, but then that has to be hard wired into the systems and evaluation with inside a business.
It has to be held up. It has to be called out. It has to be measured, improved upon.
Otherwise it's for nothing, right?
[Jenn Yugo] (41:52 - 41:57)
Right, right. If it's not articulated and written down and measured, then it's not going to be treasured.
[Andy Goram] (41:57 - 42:47)
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Measured and treasured.
Wonderful. What a lovely soundbite that is. Now then, Jenn, like you said before on the three questions I asked you around belonging, site safety and clarity, we could have had a whole separate episode about that.
And we have had no time to get into massive detail today, but I found it really interesting to talk about your approach to leadership development. I've come to this bit in the show I call Sticky Notes, Jenn, where I'm trying to get you to summarize the sort of three biggest pearls of wisdom that you've brought to the table today in just three little things we could stick on Sticky Notes. So if I was to press you today and think about if we really want leadership, growth, habit change to stick, what would your three bits of advice be today?
Final Reflections on What Makes Leadership Development Stick
[Jenn Yugo] (42:49 - 45:41)
Yeah. Well, that's quite the challenge. Just take all of leadership and put it on three sticky notes then and have it be successful.
Really, we talked a lot about values. And you mentioned do I have one key approach to leadership that I take or, you know, leadership philosophy. And one thing that we know from studying leadership and the evidence out there, the science, is that it's so situational.
It depends so much on the nature of the business, what you're trying to achieve, your strategy, and that culture. So the first piece, I would say, is just that consistency of values over time. And having that be a practice, having the disciplines, the processes, the support that's necessary to make sure that at the individual level, all the way up to the organizational level, that there's that consistency of values over time.
And then with us as people, we want our own personal values to be able to be supported and come through there. So that's the first one, consistency of values. And then the second would be that belonging.
You mentioned belonging a few times. Creating that sense of belonging. We know that leadership is often talked about as being lonely.
And I don't think that has to happen. But it's so often overlooked because we're so focused on getting out there and doing the great things we want to achieve that we can lose making sure that we as leaders have that sense of belonging and support and connection, not just with one another, but also with our teams as well. And then the next piece, of course, would just be simply that it's a process and it's a journey.
And we think about individual trainings, webinars, events, having performance reviews, or having a 360. Okay, here's the feedback, go. Go do it now.
Making it more, recognizing that it is a journey, and there's going to be little bumps along the way and things are going to change and our environment's going to change. If we think about five years ago, where we were over six years ago, 2019 to 2025, we've been through a pandemic, massive technical shifts, ways of working, so many things that what works for us now as leaders isn't necessarily what's going to work for us as leaders in an organization even a year from now. So that it's definitely a journey.
And when we're on a journey, we're not just in our own bubble, we're affected by everything that is around us, both within our industry, but also within our own lives and life. So that journey piece, consistency of values over time and belonging, support and belonging would be my three sticky notes, which I think you can fit each of those on one.
[Andy Goram] (45:41 - 46:23)
What an unfair challenge that is to try and fit it all on three stickers. But I think you've done brilliantly there. And they all link together nicely.
And I think that idea of test and learn is really important when it comes to leadership and linking that test and learn to your values. So you might try some things, it doesn't feel like you, it doesn't feel connected to you, it's not going to work for you, you're less likely to stick with it because it doesn't feel natural. And so I think that whole idea of test and learn and linking it to values is fascinating.
Really, really cool. Jenn, I have loved having you on the show. It's been great.
Big fan. If people would like to find out a little bit more about you and the work that you do over at Covertus, where can they go? Where could they find out more stuff?
[Jenn Yugo] (46:25 - 47:08)
Well, it's been a delight, absolute delight and privilege to speak with you as well. And we have a website that I'm personally pretty proud of that has a lot of resources in the background on us and what we do and what we're all about. I try to write at least monthly, if not more on these topics.
So our blog has a lot of different resources. We have even sample assessments and tools and other things across the entire talent management journey that you can explore. And then we also are very present on LinkedIn as well.
I think that's our most predominant platform as well as our website. So I'd love to be able to connect and talk and share.
[Andy Goram] (47:08 - 47:19)
Brilliant. Well, I'll put all the links for those things in the show notes and we will hopefully get people in touch with you. That's fantastic.
Jenn, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been lovely to meet you and wonderful to listen to you.
[Jenn Yugo] (47:19 - 47:21)
Thank you so much, Andy, for this opportunity.
[Andy Goram] (47:22 - 48:00)
Okay, everyone. Well, that was Jenn Hugo. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the topics that we've chatted about today, please check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.
